POLL: Should the U.S.A. recognize Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion & War Issues' started by marylander1940, Dec 5, 2017 at 7:38 PM.

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Should the U.S.A. recognize Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Maybe in the future.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. nynakedtop

    nynakedtop Count

    A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.

    "Mao Zedong, Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan" (March 1927), Selected Works, Vol. I, p. 28.*​
     
  2. Yeah, not really big on classes overthrowing one another, which just means one group becoming ascendant and dominating another as a matter of policy. That's not equality or leveling the playing field. Equality would be consequences and amelioration without oppression.
     
  3. nynakedtop

    nynakedtop Count

    i get that...

    actually i will lighten this up a bit - i just posted the whole quote for you to see the context... i use the quote from time to time more tongue-in-cheek than anything else, helps to lighten the mood during a particularly tense meeting at school or something.
     
    quoththeraven likes this.
  4. Kenny

    Kenny Duke

    The US should certainly get it. We were founded as a slave nation that disenfranchised women in the belief that all men are created equal.
     
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  5. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    The Jews who were in Israel in 1948 before the state was founded, were residents on land they owned. No one gave them any land. There had always been Jews in Palestine after the Romans took over. Their presence was continuous. They were not primarily citizens of colonial powers. In fact, Britain had worked to keep Jews out as they tried to flee the Nazis in Europe and even after the war (think "Exodus") England kept the survivors out. Yes, AFTER the state was declared, the remnants of European Jews came in large numbers. Yes, muslim Palestinians were displaced in the 1948 war.

    Because the two religions could not get along, partition was seen as the best solution just as it was in the Indian sub-continent between the Hindus and the Muslims. At the UN, that was the solution for such conflicts. In Palestine, each side got areas where they were the dominant population with Jerusalem given to neither side. England did not "hand off" anything to "primarily citizens of colonial powers." England did "hand off" the problem to the UN who did the partition plan.

    BUT Jews in Muslim lands were also subject to "wholesale dispossession" like the Jews who had lived in the old city of Jerusalem and the West Bank by Jordan as I have mentioned but also Jews from the other Arab countries like Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, across North Africa; the estimates I have seen total in the hundreds of thousands.

    Yes, we should all have sympathy for the displaced in wars; in this case, that sympathy should be to both the Muslims and the Jews; your sympathy seems to be selective.
     
  6. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Palestinian anger and resistance is not "justified" but it is understandable. The Palestinians have been used as pawns by their own leadership to generate that hate and anger. That hate and anger has destroyed their future with the rhetoric of hatred and the actions of terror rather than constructive actions. For example, when Israel withdrew from Gaza, rather than build a democratic society and flourish, the people fell into partisan violence and used their energy and assets for terror. I have been to Gaza (before the hand-over) and the place has beautiful beaches and could be a great resort area for the Europeans to escape their cold Winters. They could have built houses rather than terror tunnels. They could have built up tech industries rather than build rockets. They need to be held responsible for their own choices rather than keep blaming Israel and America for all their problems. Their choices are partly responsible for their situation.
     
  7. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Israel is a democracy with multiple parties reflecting all view points (including Communists and Muslims). I used to go there annually on business and political discussions seem to be done in a "yelling, passionate mode." No other country in the area has a more diverse group of parties. In practice as I have mentioned, Jerusalem has more churches, mosques and synagogues in a small area than any other place I have seen. All are welcome to practice their faiths openly and in freedom; something not permitted when the old city was ruled by Jordan and something not normally seen in the Arab or Islamic countries.

    "Ethnic" discrimination does happen but less so than in other places where I have been. But yes, it does happen just as it does here in the U.S. It is not perfect in this regard but like our country, they are working towards its elimination. Israel's democracy is not "predicated on ethnic discrimination".

    "Religious discrimination" does exist but not as much as you would think. Democracies can have a moral grounding in a specific religion. The moral grounding of the country is Judaism just as the moral grounding of the U.S. is Christianity and of India in Hinduism and Pakistan in Islam, etc. The country reflects that grounding. Wanting to keep that character, there is a strong feeling for the two state solution with two countries living side-by-side with each having its own character just like India and Pakistan; if that is discrimination, then so be it. (The India-Pakistan displaced more people than any other such event in our time and makes the Jewish-Muslim displacement look "small").


    Yes, there is no excuse for discrimination. It seems to be a human trait. Yes, the Hebrew Bible does not excuse discrimination.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017 at 8:21 AM
  8. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Correct. That does not justify Jordan's aggression and taking the Palestinian land.
     
  9. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    I am going to be very cynical on the U.S. aid to Israel: it is really a sneaky way to fund the "industrial-military American complex" and help make up for cuts in the U.S. military budget:
    1-under current law, ALL of the military aid that Israel gets is required to be spent in the U.S.---it's a jobs program! It's business for American military manufacturers! As the military budgets have been cut, these funds channel business to those firms to keep their sales and employment up.

    2-as the U.S. military has been cut back, the U.S. military is looking to Israel to help America contain Russia which has navel and air bases in Syria. In case of a war with Russia, Israel's task is to handle the Russians in the area and feee up the diminished American military to concentrate elsewhere.

    As for the embassy, personally, I would leave it in Tel Aviv (I a sure the employees like their beach front accommodations, too). That is Russia's position: recognize the reality of Jerusalem as Israel's capital BUT not move the embassy there until there is a peace deal. That position did not bring the hand-wringing we now see so I assume that is a reasonable position.
     
    quoththeraven likes this.
  10. I like "let a thousand flowers bloom" but was afraid to cite it for fear there was something more specific surrounding it.

    "Not a dinner party" is a good metaphor, but in addition to resulting in tit-for-tat retaliation and oppression, revolutionary movements rarely remain grassroots movements. They either begin or devolve into authoritarian leadership that has a lot in common with fascism. Cults of personality and leadership in one person's hands are never a good sign and antithetical to democracy and self-rule.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017 at 1:10 PM
    bigjoey likes this.
  11. I saw something suggesting that there's no go-ahead yet to relocate the embassy. I don't know how true that is. I would think relocation to Jerusalem is going to make it likely to be targeted for attack, which will in turn make it more difficult to defend because of its location. Does it make sense to take more risks and incur more costs? No, but this kleptocracy is being run solely for the benefit of its financial and electoral patrons. If it pleases them, neither money nor sense matter.

    Also for a more in-depth look at the differences in treatment between Palestinians and Israelis in Jerusalem, see this article.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ols-jerusalem-trumps-speech-wont-change-that/
     
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  12. nynakedtop

    nynakedtop Count

    absolutely yes....

    but - realize that sometimes speech is "performative" - sometimes throwing out a phrase that is familiar to some and that has some baggage attached to it is a form of art, of using choice of words to relay a message that lurks deep inside the phrase and is not restricted to the actual meaning of the words as originally intended...

    think of the notions of signified and signifier from deSaussure, and stuff.....

    but, wow, on reflection that sounds way too druggie/academic
     
  13. We like to pretend that legal changes make up for all that.
     
    bigjoey likes this.
  14. Yes, I know, but it works less well that way on a message forum like this.

    This all makes me think of Foucault, whose theories had not yet been published and disseminated when I was in college. I hadn't even heard of semiotics until I heard of Umberto Eco. For all of Foucault's contributions, I'm just as glad to have missed out.
     
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  15. nynakedtop

    nynakedtop Count

    i liked your post for the spirit of it, but... gotta admit it - total Foucault-junkie here, hehe!!
     
    quoththeraven likes this.
  16. Close reading of 19th century and early 20th century literature is more my thing than Foucault. If I wanted to engage in that level of abstraction, I would have majored in philosophy.
     
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  17. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    At the time of our founding, both slavery and powerless women were the norm. In those two areas, our founding just reflected the common ideas of the time. Yes, you are correct that over the centuries, we have evolved our laws to be at a far different place. Yes, there is still more ground to cover but we have not been frozen in ideas of the 18th century.
     
    quoththeraven likes this.
  18. nynakedtop

    nynakedtop Count

    ... again, i "get" that - the way anthropology was taught during my grad/undergrad tenure was heavy on schools of critical thought... to the extent that one would be shunned if foucault & co. did not make it into just about every paragraph

    but, alas, i digress.... doing my own form of sabotaging a thread (unless, of course, we can somehow incorporate Edward Said into the conversation!!)
     
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  19. pitman

    pitman Viscount

    Thank you for posting this. It cuts through the obfuscation and bullshit that has so long dominated any discussion of the Palestine/Israel conflict. Reposting the link in hopes that more people will read it.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/12/07/israel-already-acts-like-it-controls-jerusalem-trumps-speech-wont-change-that/
     
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  20. Moondance

    Moondance Peer

    Does Donald Trump have any real interest (other than a self-serving political one) in moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem?

    Aside from kissing the asses of his core voters and the wallet of Sheldon Adelson, aside from a swell opportunity to bash his promise-breaking predecessors (I'm a better president than they were. Told ya! Told ya!), does he really care about this?

    In Paris, Rex Tillerson said Friday that Trump had ordered the State Department to "start the process of making the move" but that it would take time. He said it was "not something that is going to happen this year, probably not next year."

    Um hmm. Stayed tuned for delay and excuses. Let's see if the understaffed State Department and the easily distracted president can manage to do just enough to appease the base and keep Sheldon happy to get themselves to the 2020 election without relocating the embassy to Jerusalem.
     
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