Hatred On the March

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion & War Issues' started by Whitman, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Oaktown

    Oaktown Count

  2. Kenny

    Kenny Duke

    I can't help but notice that the ridiculous Orrin Hatch, who supports Trump with his Senate votes 98% of the time, does not call out the Orange President in his high-falutin' tweet but instead offers philosophical BS about how "we" should behave. No, Orrin; it's how your boy should behave, but doesn't. Spare me the moral lesson from Salt Lake City.
  3. Oaktown

    Oaktown Count

    "We should call evil by its name, Trump!"
  4. Let me edit that:

    "We should call evil by its name: Trump!"
    pitman, bigvalboy and Oaktown like this.
  5. Whitman

    Whitman Lord

    I am no fan of Orrin Hatch, @Kenny, nor of his voting record, nor his support for Trump (etc., etc., etc...), however ...

    I'd be reluctant to characterize a tweet about his brother, a turret gunner shot down over Europe in 1945, as either "high-falutin'" or "philosophical." Let's at least consider that maybe a better word for it is heartfelt.

    And that maybe -- even probably -- the "we" Hatch is addressing is his constituency (Utahns, Republicans, Trump supporters) -- not you or me.

    And that the "moral lesson" -- delivered after Trump utterly failed to "call evil by its name" -- also isn't for you and me, but for the president.
    WilliamM and quoththeraven like this.
  6. You're still falling for the myth that white supremacy isn't racism, that upholding racist systems is somehow more moderate or praiseworthy than outright killing people, and that Lee was some kind of praiseworthy person because he presented himself as a gentleman and was a pillar of the Southern power structure. That power structure and the wealth of the entire country was inextricably wrapped up in the brutal exploitation of the labor, lives and bodies of one group of people justified through the ideology of white supremacy.

    Many PoCs would rather deal with someone who's open and honest about their racial hatred than people who are convinced they're not racist when their actions and words confirm that they are. The ones who are open about it are less exhausting to deal with.
    JayCeeKy and marylander1940 like this.
  7. jjkrkwood

    jjkrkwood Regent

    Of course it was, but a President of ALL people should NEVER forget to acknowledge such things. As I said, there was INTENT in his "forgetfulness"....
    bigvalboy likes this.
  8. WilliamM

    WilliamM Regent

    Yes, Hatch's brother did not live long enough to have a voting record. We do not know Hatch's exact feelings. Given his loss in the Second World War, Sen. Hatch deserves sympathy and compassion.
  9. Other than satisfying your own emotional needs and reinforcing the masculinist, patriarchal view that this is a zero sum game that requires offensive tactics on both sides, what is gained by swinging that baseball bat? How does this fit into any concept of proportionality?

    Such tactics undermine trust in your otherwise accurate analysis and put people and causes you purport to care about at risk. There's a reason the antifa and radical movements are largely peopled by highly educated white cis men who are not nearly as much at risk of being caught, beaten by police or prosecuted as their black and brown counterparts.

    Nonviolent resistance (including disruptive activity that is illegal but not violent) is the radical choice. It's also the more effective choice. A swung baseball bat can kill the target or hurt a bystander, and there is nothing persuasive or morally convincing about what otherwise resembles a gang rumble or the antics of football hooligans.
    Insofar as his statements exposes the kind of mediocrity and lack of analytical skills that result from a belief in white supremacy, sure.

    I wouldn't call it an adolescent analogy, but it is beneath your intellectual abilities. There is a big difference between an attempt by inmates (many from marginalized groups) trying to address the inhuman treatment and conditions of the prison industrial complex escalating due to stonewalling and public confrontation because of dissatisfaction with the idea that we allow rallies on public property by people peddling hateful ideologies that are at odds with principles now enshrined in our governing document. For you not to see that seems both convenient and myopic.

    The only protection we have against a government espousing white supremacy is a constitution that on its face largely opposes it and guarantees everyone the right to express their views, protest and picket. If private citizens get to pick and choose who is entitled to public fora outside the context of educational institutions, we're potentially kissing goodbye to our own rights in the future.
  10. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Dear latbear4blk,
    An amazing post that both Kenny and I "like." That is a great accomplishment :)

    Clearly, nynakedtop thinks it is worse to have a government of thugs from the right that enslaves its population by murder, torture and repression than a government on the left that enslaves its population by murder, torture and repression. Somehow he fails to see that for the populations involved, authoritarian governments are the same. Be it a political disident in Hitler's Germany, a South American country run by military generals, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China or dozens of other authoritarian governments, and the results are the same: slavery, torture and an unpleasant death.

    Intolerant and authoritarian governments of all stripes are wrong and fail in the end to benefit their citizens. Democracy is difficult and because of man's imperfect nature, as it requires a difficult balancing act between freedom and order. Too much freedom and you get chaos; too much order and you get slavery. Just because democracy is hard work does mean that we should not try to go down that road.

    Yes, hatred is a powerful emotion and used by authoritarian governments of all stripes to get and hold power. The 20th Century shows how difficult it is not to become a "puppet" to the force of hatred. Speaking as someone who is secularized, I am starting to come to the conclusion that Washington was correct in his farewell address:
    "Let us with caution indulge in the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on the minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

    I was deeply moved by the survivors of Dylann Roof's Charleston church massacre. Instead of hate, through their deep religious convictions, the families offered love and forgiveness. They showed the strong commitment that kept them from being "puppets" of hate. As secularization fails to provide a moral bedrock, perhaps it is time to look again at Washington's "religious principle" for a bedrock. Yes, religion has failed too often in the past but being less than perfect, humans may need a strong bedrock and as the members of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church showed, it does have positive results when people work hard enough. The failings may be ours, not religion's.
    latbear4blk likes this.
  11. Whitman

    Whitman Lord

    Worth a read regarding Robert E. Lee ...

    The Myth of the Kindly General Lee
    The legend of the Confederate leader’s heroism and decency is based in the fiction of a person who never existed.
    by Adam Serwer, The Atlantic, June 4, 2017

    ... The strangest part about the continued personality cult of Robert E. Lee is how few of the qualities his admirers profess to see in him he actually possessed.

    ... White supremacy does not “violate” Lee’s “most fundamental convictions.” White supremacy was one of Lee’s most fundamental convictions.

    LINK TO THE ARTICLE: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
    WilliamM, quoththeraven and JayCeeKy like this.
  12. JayCeeKy

    JayCeeKy Knight

    I agree. The sooner we admit that "Southern Gentlemen" like General Robert E. Lee were traitors and NOT role models, the sooner these concrete monuments to white supremacy will come down. As the NYT stated:

    "The memorials that are slated to be relocated belong to the cult of the lost cause and were built to valorize a treasonous war that was fought to preserve slavery — and to essentially deify generals like Robert E. Lee who fought it."
    quoththeraven likes this.
  13. I agree that Lee has been deified (by admirers North and South) beyond anything that would be considered reasonable in the immediate post-Civil war era. And I recognize the damage of perpetuating the hypocrisy of the gentlemanly veneer that has been used to hide his and other Confederate leaders responsibility for defending slavery and a racist ideology. But having taken graduate courses in Civil war and Southern history from professors who were quite critical of Lee and the cult that has grown up around him lo these last 140 years, I still believe that Lee would be appalled that the likes of white trash (sorry, in my neighborhood, that is what they are) thugs invading the home of a premier public university ostensibly to protest the removal of his statue. And do you really think Lee would want to be memorialized this way in the first place? Do you really think he'd give a fuck whether he was memorialized in the first place?
  14. Much truth to that-perhaps Bacon's Rebellion (1676) would be a useful analogy. Much to it, but one conclusion historians have drawn is that elite whites in Virginia learned the dangers of an alliance of whites and blacks (primarily indentured servants or former servants) and increasingly turned to African slavery as the primary source of labor in Virginia. The argument is that this gave most whites elevated status by making them better to a permanently inferior class of people.
    Kenny and quoththeraven like this.
  15. JayCeeKy

    JayCeeKy Knight

    Lest we forget, there were probably was (is?) just as much racism in the North before and after that Civil War as in the South - unfortunately, for southerners, their entire economy depended on slavery. I would also venture that a sizeable number of White Supremacists at the rally yesterday were from North of the Mason-Dixon line. The man who drove the car into the crowd yesterday was from Boone County, Kentucky, which is just across the river from Cincinnati. Lincoln himself, though he was against allowing slavery in the new states, stated that he believed that blacks were physically and mentally inferior to whites - and originally advocated moving all blacks to Africa or Haiti. A research study a few years ago found that we unconsciously associate "American" with "white." Little wonder that the birther movement found firm footing in some circles.
    DeepSouthDad53 likes this.
  16. WilliamM

    WilliamM Regent

    Arguing with Lyndon Johnson beliefs on racial issues still occurs in many parts of the United States, as witnessed yesterday. LBJ is not the anti-Robert E. Lee even if Robert Caro may reach that conclusion in long-awaited last LBJ book.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    DeepSouthDad53 likes this.
  17. If I'm not mistaken, he was still thinking along those lines just months before his assassination, perhaps up to the point of Congress passing the 13th Amendment in early 1865.
  18. pitman

    pitman Viscount

    Jeff Sessions on Charlottesville: When actions "arise from racial bigotry and hatred, they betray our core values and cannot be tolerated"

    When JeffBeau3 can make a stronger stand against violent bigotry than Trump, that tells you that Trump depends on violent racists as much as he depends on Putin for his political "legitimacy".
  19. jjkrkwood

    jjkrkwood Regent

    I am sure Trump looks upon his followers hatred and violence as "I'm doing something RIGHT"... "They LOVE and support ME"...... That really is how sick this man IS.
  20. Kenny

    Kenny Duke

    I would never in a million years suggest that racism has not been rampant in the North, but Jim Crow will be surprised to hear that it was (is?) as bad as in the South.